In this episode, Rihanot and Tiaraoluwa speak with Michael Flood, a Professor in the School of Justice at Queensland University of Technology.
In this eye-opening episode, we delve into the powerful role men can play in the fight against violence and discrimination. Join us as we sit down with the insightful Prof Michael Flood to explore the transformative impact of feminism on men and society.
Prof Flood shares his compelling perspective on masculinity, challenging traditional norms and emphasizing the potential for men to be warm, nurturing, empathetic, and kind. Discover how toxic masculinity, sexist beliefs, and misogyny don’t just harm women but also have a profound impact on boys and men.
Read and listen to “Empathy, Equality and Men: Redefining what it means to be ‘Manly’ ” below.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba :
Welcome back, everyone, to another eye-opening episode of The Counter Narrative Podcast. Today, we are delving deep into a misunderstood and overlooked topic: toxic masculinity and redefining gender equality.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi: Absolutely Rihanot.
It’s a privilege to welcome you all to this episode. Joining us to shed light on these critical issues is a distinguished guest, Professor Michael Flood, an expert in gender studies and a prominent voice advocating for equality. Professor Flood, thank you for joining us for this groundbreaking conversation.
Professor Michael Flood:
It’s my pleasure.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
So today we are unravelling the factors behind the alarming rise of the red pill movement and the male supremacist influencers. Dr. Flood, what are your insights into what’s responsible for this trend and the impact that it has on young boys and men?
Professor Michael Flood:
Look, the first thing I would say is that influencers like Andrew Tate and other, other men have been around for a very long time. There have long been in, uh, in Western societies, in African societies, in many countries. Men and sometimes women who preach, uh, patriarchy, who, you know, who want to tell us that men should dominate women, men should be the heads of households and should, um, have the power and the decisions in households, and that anything else is unnatural, is dangerous. And we need to, you know, put men back, um, in powerful positions. So Andrew Tate and people like him are not new.
Uh, and one of the reasons that Andrew Tate is, and, and other male supremacist influencers are successful is because they draw on very old ideas, very old sexist ideas. and they, and they, uh, re-energize those ideas, but they also are successful, I think at the moment because some men do feel like things are changing too quickly.
Professor Michael Flood:
You know, gender roles are changing. Women now have more power than they used to. Some men feel confused, some men feel angry. Some men feel under attack, and male supremacist influencers can sympathize with those men and, you know, make those men feel listened to.
Another reason why those influencers are successful is because they try to sell men and boys a very traditional image of masculinity. Where to be a man is to be rich, to be strong, to be surrounded by lots of of beautiful women, uh, to have money and cars and sex and so on. Um, and, you know, that is attractive for some boys and men.
The final reason why influencers have been able to be successful now is they have been very skilled at using the internet and social media and marketing strategies to kind of spread their message. So they have an influence, which I think is far greater than they should because of their ability to use the internet and other methods.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Oh, it seems to be a man is to be rich and to have car, women and sex. I think it’s really dangerous to you. What do you think?
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
You know, okay. So, you know, from what he said is that they sell traditional values to them. You know, these boys and young men grew up seeing that their parents or their fathers were like the head of the home, and they could see the traditional settings, and they want that. But now they’re seeing that women are becoming more enlightened and aware of stuff like that. So they don’t want it to change. That’s what they’re fighting against it.
And like, that’s what you said from, like, from your, um, from an explanation of what’s going on right now. Thank you so much for that.
Professor Michael Flood:
I think another factor is that some traditional male roles, uh, are now, um, are now increasingly difficult for men to have. So many men in families, they are no longer the only person who brings home the money, who does work. They are no longer the only one with access to money, with access to resources. And I see that as a good thing, and I think that’s a good thing, a good thing for men themselves but I think some men struggle.
Some men find that hard, especially if they don’t have work, and their wives do have work. You know, gender roles are shifting because of economic changes. Uh, you know, in countries, in Africa, in countries around the world.
Capitalism, you know, economic changes, globalization, uh, have produced rapid social changes. And I think for some people those changes can be challenging and people like Andrew Tate offer easy, simple answers to those challenges, answers, which in fact are dangerous, which are dangerous for women, but also for men themselves.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
Thank you so much for that insightful answer to the question. So, you know that from what I mentioned earlier about how parents also, like what they saw their parents doing also play an impact on this. So we see that it’s worth noting that fathers play a significant role in shaping their son’s perspectives.
Professor Flood, we’re keen to know, to hear your thoughts on how fathers can influence their sons to be nonviolent and respectful towards women so that we have, uh, a future that is free of violence against women. How do you think fathers can help to train the boys to be better and to avoid violence against women?
Professor Michael Flood:
But that’s a great question. We know that fathers shape their children. Fathers, like mothers shape, what kinds of people, their sons, their daughters turn out to be. And that can, that can be good or bad. If a father is violent, violent to his wife, if he is violent to his children, then his children may learn that violence is acceptable. That, you know, you can use violence if you disagree with your wife, or you can use violence if you feel that your wife is not behaving properly. And so if a father uses violence, he can pass on a bad message to his children.
If a father instead treats his wife with respect and care, if he deals with conflicts using his words, not using his fists, um, if he addresses conflict and communication in a respectful and a nonviolent way, then children learn that as well.
Professor Michael Flood:
So fathers shape their children, and because of that, fathers can shape children who will grow up to have happy, healthy non-violent relationships. One of the first ways that fathers can do that is by treating the mothers of their children with respect and care, not using violence, talking respectfully about, you know, to their wives and about their mothers, to their children.
Fathers can share the care of domestic work and growing numbers of men in countries around the world are appreciating the fact that they now have more opportunity than they used to, to be involved with their children, to spend time with their children, to care for their children, and to share the work. It is often work- the work of caring for children and maintaining a household, um, with their wives and partners. And so men can practice non-violence practice respect, they can share the care, and men can also model respect and non-violence themselves, because our children watch us, our sons and daughters watch how we behave, how we behave with our wives, with our girlfriends, and so on. And they take lessons from that. So we have to model non-violence and gender equality ourselves. Uh, we have to manage conflicts well and so on.
So fathers do those things. Um, then fathers like mothers and other adults, uncles, grandmothers, um, other people in children’s lives, fathers can play a very powerful role in raising children who will have healthy, happy relationships themselves.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
I think in order to have a happy and healthy relationship like Tiara said, I feel like what these young men see is what they model, and this brings me to my next question.
When we hear the phrase, “man up”, a boy is crying, and you hear people say, oh, you are a man, stop crying. He hit his head on their wall and somebody saying, oh, you a man, stop crying.
The phrase “man up” continues to resonate despite the troubling rate of male suicide. Can you provide your perspective on whether this phrase is harmful or helpful in today’s context?
Professor Michael Flood:
Look, I think that the phrase “man up” is unhelpful. I think tsaying to a boy who has hurt himself, a boy who was crying, or a boy who was showing weakness to “man up” is, that is just one example of a whole range of ways in which we often tell boys to be tough, to be strong. And I should say, being tough, being strong. These are good qualities in some contexts.
If I’m playing a sport like rugby league or football, then I need to be tough. I need to be strong. If I am trying to rescue someone from a fire, from a fire in a house or in a hut or whatever, then I have to be strong. But there are other times when those qualities are not so useful. And when someone is hurt, for example, then it, you know, I don’t need to be tough or strong.
I need to be compassionate. I need to be sensitive. I need to say, “are you okay? Can I help you?” and I need to respond with empathy and care to them. And so the problem is not with the quality, the problem is not with being tough or strong by itself. The problem is when boys or men are told that they must be tough or strong all the time, and particularly when we tell boys, even boys who’ve hurt themselves, or a boy who is sad, a boy who’s sad because his friend has been cruel to him, or a young man who is sad because his girlfriend has ended their relationship.
We need to give space for those boys to be sad, to cry, to show weakness and so on. Because if we don’t do that, we tell men they must always be tough. Then when men are struggling, when a man has, um, you know, had his parents die, for example, or when he, you know, he’s lost his crop because of the floods or because of the drought or something, um, then he has no one to turn to.
Professor Michael Flood:
He cannot tell anybody that he’s sad or he’s scared or he is, um, you know, upset about what has happened. And he is less able to reach for help. And the research in many countries tells us that when men believe those things, well, when men believe they must always be tough, they must always be strong. They must never ask for help. Those men are more likely to consider killing themselves, more likely to consider suicide than men who do ask for help.
The men who know that it’s okay to show weakness, to sow vulnerability sometimes. So in other words, there, there are various qualities associated with being a man in many countries, in many countries, to be a man, you’re expected to be tough, to be strong, to be in control and so on. And again, those qualities are good some of the time. But if we expect men to live up to those qualities all the time, then we leave men at greater risk of suicide.
Professor Michael Flood:
We, we socialize boys and men, so they then have poorer relationships, poorer friendships and so on. And the boys and men who believe more strongly in those stereotypes, those boys and men have poorer health. Um, they’re at greater risk of suicide. They are more likely to take risks with their health. With their health. They’re less likely to go to the doctor. They’re less likely to do what the doctor says when the doctor gives them advice and so on. And so, this is one way that masculinity— the expectations, um, that boys and men face about being a man. That masculinity is limiting for boys and men themselves. It limits boys and men’s own health. You asked me about the phrase, “man up”.
I think the phrase, “man up” is just one way that we keep that, uh, traditional and limiting model of masculinity in place.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
When you were talking about men who struggle with their health, and if we keep using the phrase “man up” or telling men to be strong when they’re supposed to just feel emotions, I feel like it’s really important to feel every emotion. If you’re happy, you laugh. If you’re excited about something, you scream. Why is it that when you feel sad as a man, you’re not allowed to express that emotion?
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi: Yes, seen as a weakness, actually.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Yes. And, and he said something about health, he actually, one way or the other, it affects your health in not wanting to speak up, in not wanting to share stuff. And reminds me of a conversation that we had on Twitter, whichhad to do with men’s health. And so many men said, “oh, why would it go to a male doctor to check if they had prostate cancer?”
So the conversation was, you would rather die than allow another man touch youto be sure that you do not carry this disease.
How toxic can this, I don’t wanna say men, how can they get, like, you’d rather die. I’m like, is, is in my head, I’m like, is it that bad? What is wrong in seeking health? What is wrong in the rhythm? You do not feel what is wrong in being touched medically?
Professor Michael Flood:
I wanna say that, this model of masculinity—this model of what some people call toxic masculinity, it’s one model of how to be a man. And there are many models of how to be a man, but we know that men who believe more strongly in that model of how to be a man, you have to be tough. You have to be strong. You can’t show weakness.
Those men are less likely to look after their own health. They’re also more likely to risk other people’s health. They’re less likely to use condoms, for example. So they are more likely to cause an unwanted pregnancy. They are more likely to transmit HIV and other sexually transmitted infections. They are more likely to use violence. And so that model of masculinity is limiting for men and boys themselves.
Professor Michael Flood:
But it also feeds into behavior by some men that harms other people. Men who believe more strongly in that model of masculinity are more likely to use violence against women, more likely to assault their partners, more likely to sexually assault, to rape or sexually assault a woman. And they’re also more likely to physically assault another man. They’re more likely to be involved in violence against other men. And we know that violence between men is a very common problem in many countries.
So there are some qualities associated with masculinity that are positive in some ways, strength, leadership, courage. You know, as I’ve said, if I am trying to rescue somebody from a burning building, then I need those qualities. But when I have rescued them and I’m comforting them, uh, and they are, you know, they’re scared, they’re sad, those qualities are not very helpful. I need other qualities. Qualities that our society thinks are feminine qualities like compassion and empathy and nurturance. But in fact, these are qualities that everybody should have that everybody should be able to access, uh, when you know when you need to access those qualities.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
Thank you very much for that. Dr Flood. Your book, Engaging Men in Good Gender Equality addresses the persistent inequalities despite the progress of the women’s movement, we see that women are more enlightened. Women are where women know their rights more now, but we still have it, like the inequalities are still very evident.
How can we effectively dismantle these disparities? And do you think marches and protests are enough, or do we need to do more? What do you think we need to do to be able to like to, to bridge that gap?
Professor Michael Flood:
Look, that’s a great question, and I think we have to be fair. Uh, you know, the women’s movements and feminism have been trying for 40 or 50 years, you know, in the second wave of feminism to to change gender inequalities, to change systems of gender inequality in countries across the world and as you’ve said, have made very significant progress. But there are also still entrenched, uh, widespread forms of inequality in economic power, in political power, in cultural power, and in men’s and women’s everyday relations.
And one reason that that is true is because gender inequalities are hard to change. They are gender inequalities are built into our systems of government, into many of our religious institutions built into sport, into media and culture built into families, and how families raise their sons and daughters and so on. And some, there’s been change in all those areas, but we are talking about systems and structures of inequality. And just as it is hard to change racial inequalities, hard to change the forms of inequality between different racial and ethnic groups, it is hard to change forms of gender, gender inequality. It’s certainly possible, and it’s also hard.
So in terms of what women and the women’s movements should do, um, I feel slightly nervous answering that question because as a man, it’s not really my role.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
How do we involve men in it?
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
I’m sorry, I wanna say something you said. How do we involve men in it? Sometimes when we are having this conversation on bigger spaces, you hear men say things like, Ugh, it feels like they say they use the word gender. Gender, and they say that we’re exaggerating. But I think it’s because men do not see us as people enough. I say that because when it becomes their sisters or their mothers, they say things like, oh, when my dad died, we had to go to the village to do X, y, Z drives, and we think it’s ridiculous.
Or when something happens to someone that is very close to them, then they understand the fight. And I say things like, is it that we’re not people enough? You should see us as women.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
We don’t necessarily have to be your mothers, your wives, your sisters, before you understand our struggles or use words or see us or, or have a, or see us as a human being or see us as a human beings observing of. Right, exactly. So how do you think we can involve men in it?
I know that you cannot give us how you cannot, um, you cannot mansplain, you cannot mansplain what women to do for the movement.
So how do you think we can involve men more in the movement so they see that, oh, there’s a problem, and then it tries to work towards a fix for it?
Professor Michael Flood:
Sure. Look, um, the, the first thing I should say is that I’m really pleased, I’m really glad to be part of a growing number of men around the world who are joining with women to challenge gender inequalities. And there are a growing number of men in countries across the world, including countries in Africa and elsewhere who have realized that they have a personal stake.
They have a personal stake in challenging sexism, in challenging patriarchy, and in joining with women to build communities and societies based on gender equality. And, you know, one question is, well, how do men come to that? Why do some men come to believe that they should support feminism, that we should support women’s rights and work with women?
One key influence is listening to women that we often, for some men it is, they are close to particular women, uh, a wife, a girlfriend, a sister, a daughter, a mother, and they hear something about her life and about women’s lives.
Professor Michael Flood:
But of course, we want men to care not only about the women they know, but about the women they will never know, the women they will never meet. And to develop a kind of fundamental respect for women’s human rights, as you have described.
Another reason why men come to a support for feminism is principle, political principle, a belief in social justice or a religious or spiritual belief in fairness or democracy, or an involvement in other progressive political struggles, anti-racist and anti-apartheid struggles, other kinds of political struggles and so on. So there are growing numbers of men who are joining and contributing to feminist movements as male allies. And I very much believe that men have a vital role to play in ending gender inequalities.
One of the reasons that’s true is the problem of gender inequality is actually much more a problem of men than it is a problem of women, because men tend to have, um, poorer attitudes, more sexist attitudes towards gender issues than women.
Professor Michael Flood:
Now of course, women, some women behave in ways that maintain gender inequalities, but men do much more of that. And so it’s especially important that we engage men and that men play a role. And in fact, if I, as a man talk about gender inequalities to a male audience, I will be listened to much more easily than a woman saying exactly the same thing.
You know men are socialized to care about men and to listen to men’s voices more than women’s. And that means that, men can play a particularly powerful role. But we also, we men also need to amplify women’s voices to invite other men to listen to women and we need sometimes to literally hand the microphone to women so that, you know, women can speak and we can encourage other men to listen.
I haven’t said a whole lot about how we can engage men in building gender equality, but I hope I’ve given you a sense that it’s an absolutely vital thing for us to do.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
I completely agree. You know, speaking of men listening to men more on this, in this conversation, sometimes in our own spaces, if a man, if, if women discuss breastfeeding for example, we say, “Oh, breastfeeding is really hard”. “This, and this happens when I breastfeed”, and we’re talking about struggles with breastfeeding, for example, you know, there’s always this discourse of “what do they mean?”
You know, a man can just say, “I witnessed my wife breastfeed for two years, and it was the hardest thing” and then they’ll listen to him. So all of the conversations we have been having, like amongst women explaining how hard breastfeeding is postpartum and everything, it feels like we are exaggerating.
But a man would come and he would, a man could be like, oh, I get you”. So we’re looking at this men. Like, didn’t you understand what we said earlier?
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
But it’s like they feel a sense of—what’s the sense, you know, men tend to listen more to to men than women.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
And that’s why I think that allies that like an ally for the, to the feminist movements. So I, I feel that allies should speak to other men, like address sexism and all of that with men, because you see some male allies, they come into the feminist space and they speak over women, they don’t listen and they take up space, but like, okay, we know what we’re going through, right? and we need help, but men will not listen to us. They’ll listen to other men.
So I feel that if you are a man and an ally and you feel that, “oh, yes, I understand gender inequality”, like, I feel that the best thing is for you to speak to other men. And that’s one of the reasons why I’m very happy when we asked you a question that you could have said, oh, women do this. But then you were like, oh, no.
Knowing your place in the feminist movement, it’s really, it’s really awesome. Thank you so much for that.
Professor Michael Flood:
Yeah. Look, that’s really fascinating to hear. And I mean, I think some men, for some men, it does make a difference if they listen carefully to women’s voices and women’s experience.
Certainly some men in my country have become advocates against men’s violence against women by listening to women and listening to women’s stories of, you know, being the victim or survivors of sexual violence or domestic violence. But I agree with you that those dynamics you’ve described also mean that men will sometimes listen much more readily to men.
When a man comes to me and says, “what can I do? What can I do to stop men’s violence against women or to address sexism?” The first thing I would say is “start with yourself. Start with your own behavior and your treatment of the women and girls around you and make sure that as far as you can, you are behaving in nonviolent and respectful and gender equitable ways in your own lives”.
Professor Michael Flood:
In other words, start with your own house. Put your own house in order. But then, second thing that men can do is start to speak up, particularly to challenge other men, to challenge other men’s sexism, other men’s violent or violent supportive behavior.
So the second thing men can do is be active bystanders starting to challenge the sexist comments and the jokes and so on that we hear around us, particularly from other men. But the third thing men can do is join in political action. Join in collective struggles.
In other words, support women’s movements and anti-violence movements through our money, through our time, through who we vote for and so on. and start to contribute to the wider social change that we know we need to end these systems of inequality.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
Thank you so much for that, um, for that robust explanation of what men should do. So, yeah, like it’s very evident that you are redefining masculinity. It’s a very pivotal step towards a healthier society. So how do you think we can promote, um, positive masculinity and then reshape the norms of the society so that we have a more gender equal society?
Professor Michael Flood:
When we use the term, we have to be clear about how we use the term masculinity. And I use the term masculinity for the meanings we give to being a man and the meanings given to being a man are different in different cultures in different countries. And they, they have changed over time. They’re different now from what they were a hundred years ago and so on. But in many countries, in, in fact, every country in the world, I think there is one dominant model, one especially influential model of how to be a man.
That model typically involves, um, being a man is about being tough, being strong, being heterosexual, being the head of the household, being stoic and so on. And some people call that model toxic masculinity. You can call it sexist masculinity or patriarchal masculinity and so on and we’ve already heard about the ways that that model of masculinity does harm.
Professor Michael Flood:
It’s limiting for boys and men ourselves. And it’s also implicated in, it’s involved in gender inequalities to do with violence against women, to do with sexism and so on. So we need to change it. We need to somehow change the models of masculinity we have. And I think there are three things we need to do.
First of all, we have to tell the world we have to highlight for everyday men and women and others in our communities, the harms of that model of masculinity. Um, there’s some research in Australia that focused on the “man box”. So rather than using the term “toxic masculinity”, it talks about the man box and this research highlights the harm, the damage that the “man box”, does to man, to women, to children, to others. So we need to alert people to the harms of the man box.
Professor Michael Flood:
The second thing we need to do is weaken its grip, weaken its influence, or its grip in our culture. So for example, we can turn up the volume, turn up the volume on the actual diversity. The actual diversity there is among many men and boys, ’cause many men and boys live lives that are more diverse, more complex than that model of toxic masculinity, that model of the “man box” that is out there. And as part of this, we have to also get men talking.
We have to get boys in schools talking and men in churches and men in sports and workplaces talking about the messages they got about being a man. What was good about those messages, about being a man, what was negative or constraining.
The third thing we have to do, and perhaps the most important thing is to provide some kind of positive alternative, some kind of positive, healthy alternative to the “man box”or to toxic masculinity.
Professor Michael Flood:
And we have to make, um, visible to boys and men positive models of how to be a man. ’cause boys, because boys and men cannot be what they cannot see. We need positive role models. That means positive role models in boys and men’s families, in the media, in movies, in tv, in politics,, in churches, in sports and so on.
And there’s, there’s debate over, um, what we call that, do we call it healthy masculinity? Do we call it positive masculinity? Some people say, “why should we call it masculinity at all?” Because the qualities that we see as positive qualities like non-violence, like respect, like compassion and so on, these are qualities that are good for men and boys, but they’re also good for women and girls. So some people say, well, why do you want to call it healthy masculinity at all?
Professor Michael Flood:
Um, I think we should talk about healthy masculinity or positive masculinity. Um, partly ’cause many boys and men are still invested in, still care about being seen as real men, as proper men. So if we can redefine what it means to be a real man or a proper man using notions of healthy masculinity or positive masculinity, then we can make positive change.
Um, but so we have to have a positive vision for men and boys, uh, which is based on equality, which is diverse. We need diverse ways of being a man. Uh, and we need to, um, we need to actively encourage those models of he or positive masculinity here among men and boys in the community.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Thank you so much, Dr. Flood. This has been very, very insightful. And I love words like compassion, empathy, kindness. In my mind, in my head, it’s a human being thing, but it’s unfair that these qualities are only attributed to women because men are supposed to be in some sort of way just because they are men.
I think it’s really unfair, and I think that’s a lot of pressure, especially on the boy child. I’m gonna give an example. In a society like ours, if a woman has a boy and six girls and she’s a widow or maybe a single mom or anything, if anybody from the African society visits, for example, you hear people use phrases like, “oh, he’s the man of the house”. Yes. Even if the boy is four, even if he’s the last child, you’ll hear, you’re looking at his elder siblings, 40, 41, 30, 16, they’re just there.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
And then someone is calling a four-year-old boy, the head of the house. Where does that leave the mother? I mean, in my, I, I’m a mom, so I know I brought this child into this world. So now imagine someone telling me, oh, my son is the head of the house. Where does that leave me? I’m a woman. I think that’s erasure. And it’s, it’s really unfair, really. It’s really unfair. We thank you for the work you’re doing in ending violence, and we hope that we have more young boys being active bystanders.
If you see something, say something, you watch some viral videos where a couple of men or group of men are assaulting a lady, harassing a lady, and you see some men who just stand until maybe it gets really violent, doesn’t they step in, then they step, it doesn’t necessarily have to end in a punch before a man or a young boy can step in, say, you know what, what you’re doing is wrong, cut it off. It’s really unfair. And it’s, it makes really, it makes life really harder for women and girls. And we thank you again for the work you’re doing, and we’re so grateful that you found time to speak with us. Thank you so much, Dr. Flood.
Professor Michael Flood:
It’s my pleasure. And it was my pleasure to, uh, to hear your insights and to hear some, some of your reflections about the positive roles men can play, the mistakes it’s easy for men to make and so on. So yeah, I wish we could talk for longer, but thank you very much for this conversation.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi:
Thank you. Thank you so much and we look forward to having you again. Yeah. More conversations.
Professor Michael Flood:
Please. Yes, do that.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
As we conclude this episode, we are reminded that change begins with conversations and the seeds of transformation are so true.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi: Understanding indeed,
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
We are honoured to have Professor Michael Flood guide us in this crucial conversation. And to our listeners, remember that we’re the beginning of a journey to challenge and change narratives.
Okay, guys, that wraps up this episode of the Counter Narrative Podcast. Thank you for joining us. Let’s continue to question, challenge, and amplify our voices as we move forward. Stay curious, stay informed.
Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi: And remember, this is just the beginning of a new narrative.
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